BRIEFINGS PODCAST: WORKDAY REDEFINED

Workday Redefined

NOTE: While this transcript has been reviewed, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript.

Jill Wiltfong:

How the workday is being redefined.

Ronald Porter:

Measuring productivity and effectiveness is more important than determining how long somebody is in the office.

Jill Wiltfong:

Why do you think some firms are still keen to kind of keep this nine to five routine?

Joseph McCabe:

There's a reason why those leaders have gotten to top organizations. They work long and hard.

Jill Wiltfong:

A Right to Disconnect Bill, do you think this is pushing things too far?

Margie Warrell:

It can work against everybody's interests. Long as you don't call me ‘Margie’, life is good.

[Wife]:

Who are you emailing at this hour?

[Husband]:

Ah, just letting one of my direct reports know about our new delivery schedule.

[Wife]:

Kind of late, don't you think?

[Husband]:

Nah, it's just an email. He doesn't have to answer it.

[Police]:

Open up. This is the police.

[Husband]:

Huh? Stay here, honey. They must have the wrong house.

Can I help you, officer?

[Police]:

Sir, you're under arrest.

[Husband]:

For what?

[Police]:

You violated Penal Code 57568921 Section A, an employee's right to disconnect after work hours. I'm going to have to take you downtown.

[Husband]:

What? Right to disconnect. What about my rights?

[Police]:

Oh, you do have a right, the right to remain silent.

Jill Wiltfong:

Hi, I am Jill Wiltfong, Chief Marketing Officer for Korn Ferry. And this is "Briefings," our deep dive into topics that corporate leaders need to care about. Nine to five, five days a week was once synonymous with how well we all worked. But have you seen what's happening to work boundaries? A recent survey found that workers are now logging off an hour earlier than they did in 2021, leaving on average, for example, at 4:03 on Fridays. And workers are getting serious after they leave work about shutting down their laptops. From Australia to Belgium and in the state of California, governments have launched or are planning to launch laws guaranteeing workers the right to disconnect from their employers. And if a manager starts texting during non-business hours, well, they could be fined. You combine all that with the recent fact that the four-day work week continues to gain momentum in places like the UK and New Zealand, and wow, you can start to see how things are shifting. Where will it all end? What do firm leaders think about this? Well, let's talk to some experts about how the workday is being redefined.

Before we start, if you're watching us on YouTube, please be sure to like, subscribe and leave a comment to let us know your thoughts on this topic.

So, let's jump in. We're now joined by Ron Porter, a Korn Ferry Senior Client Partner in our Global Human Resource Center of Excellence, and Korn Ferry Vice Chairman Joe McCabe. Both these guys have spent years in the trenches with senior HR leaders, so they know firsthand the challenges that companies face trying to define their work days.

Thank you both for being here.

Ronald Porter:

Thank you for having me and us.

Jill Wiltfong:

You bet. So, Ron, let me start with you. Leaving an extra hour earlier from work may not sound like such a big deal, but many people are already working remotely half the week as it is, so it almost seems like working hours are kind of slipping away faster than sand in an hourglass. What is happening to the workday?

Ronald Porter:

From a positive perspective, technology has allowed people to work throughout, you know, kind of when they want to in many ways. So, somebody may be on looking at emails at 7 PM and being productive, and so leaving early, now, assuming that's not disrupting team meetings and those kinds of things, I would say going back to measuring productivity and effectiveness is more important than determining how long somebody is in the office or at their desk.

Jill Wiltfong:

Joe, let me turn this around to you a little bit here. Productivity in the US increased 3.2% in the fourth quarter of last year, compared with 2.6% for the same period a year ago. Given these seemingly positive numbers, why do you think some firms are still keen to kind of keep this nine to five routine or five-day work week? What's holding them back?

Joseph McCabe:

It's interesting, Jill. It's a fascinating study of human behavior and candidly, it gets down to individuals who don't like change. And that's why I think you're seeing certain organizations migrate back toward a five-day a week in the office. Some are still, the majority have much more flexibility than what they did prior to COVID, but still, some degree of flexibility out there is required. However, the caveat is it is industry specific. There are roles, national customer service roles, you know, manufacturing, you've got to be there, aerospace, defense industry, you've got to be there.

[J.R. Whalen]:

Now, some people will cut back on their work hours, but are they really separated from work?

[Rachel Feintzeig]:

This is where this can totally go wrong. Maybe you go down to part-time, you take a big cut to your pay and still every Friday, you're logging on because you have demands from clients or coworkers that you just feel pressure to respond to. There's also the sense I think that you miss out on promotions. You miss out on key company decisions. It’d be really hard to make this work.

Jill Wiltfong:

That's The Wall Street Journal's J.R. Whalen and Rachel Feintzeig talking about some of the hidden drawbacks that workers can face when cutting their workday or work week, no matter how hard they perform. Joe, if you're an executive rising up the ranks, can you really afford to work less time? Don't the bosses still essentially hold all the cards in terms of promotions and raises, and use that as a benchmark?

Ronald Porter:

We see it every day with the nature of Korn Ferry and the senior executives that we work with, and we place, and we help organizations understand who those best performers are. There's no doubt there's a common thread in there, despite the individual variances there. There's a work ethic there that there's a reason why those leaders have gotten to the top of the organization. They work long and hard.

Jill Wiltfong:

Ron, there's talk of some companies possibly creating a new HR role, a so-called Hours Czar, if you will, whose job is to figure out details like hours, benefits, promotions, eligibility for part-time work. Do you think that's a role that more companies should seriously consider adding? Or is this shorter workday discussion really better left between employees and managers and more one-to-one?

Ronald Porter:

It's hard to imagine that role would be effective for most organizations. I think the key would be is to make sure you've got the right people at the manager level and that they're properly trained and know how to manage and lead their team, and know when to make exceptions, and how to balance that with the rest of the workforce that perhaps is having to cover for that person who needed an exception on that moment or that day.

[J.R. Whalen]:

What did your research find with this four-day work week?

[Juliet Schor]:

Well, the findings have been pretty remarkable. Across the board, we find that companies are doing really well and for many, many wellbeing outcomes, workers are much better off. We're talking stress, burnout, physical health, mental health, fatigue, exercise, sleep, work-family conflicts, satisfaction, you name it. Big and statistically significant improvements in all of those things for workers. At the same time, the companies are seeing better revenue, lower absenteeism, less quitting, and good productivity.

Jill Wiltfong:

That's Juliet Schor, an economist and socialist at Boston College talking about a study she led out of the UK on the four-day work week. Ron, I understand you have some experience, having implemented a four-day work week in the past. Talk a little bit about how that went.

Ronald Porter:

Well, years ago, we implemented a four-day work week when I was at PepsiCo. We had a team of route drivers and their work, or route salesman, I should say, their work allowed them to be able to work four by 10 versus five by eight to give them a day off. The issue that no one really had anticipated to include the route sales guys was the fact that with that extra day, they tended to spend more money. So, when it was all said and done, they wanted to go back to the five-day work week in which we did. So, we'd have never guessed it was a way to control their spending in effect.

Jill Wiltfong:

Joe, how about a prediction on this one from you? Is the four-day work week coming to a company near you anytime soon? Or do you think it's going to remain kind of a niche idea for some time to come?

Joseph McCabe:

It's going to be a niche idea for a long time coming, Jill. You know, when the day is done, organizations and businesses have a business model and you've got to deliver on that and no different than in a retail organization, if you want to go do something on a Friday to go and they said, "I'm sorry, we're closed on a Friday." That's not acceptable.

Jill Wiltfong:

All right, so I will not book out my Friday just yet. But it does sound like something that that we'll have to keep an eye out on and from a company perspective, it's a case by case, right? The devil's in the details.

Both of you, thank you so much for coming on today, appreciate the conversation. When we come back from the break, we'll continue down the rabbit hole of the evolving workday as we discuss the recent push for the right to disconnect from work. So, stay tuned.

Rupak Bhattacharya:

Hi, and welcome to "This Week in Leadership." I'm Rupak Bhattacharya, and here's a quick look at what else is happening in business.

[Narrator 1]:

Sometimes a company's dividend might indicate that it's failing to reinvest in the growth of its business.

Rupak Bhattacharya:

S&P 500 firms increased net dividend payments in the first quarter to $16 billion. That's 60% more than the same period last year. It's seen as a means of generating shareholder goodwill, but critics argued the extra cash could go into more strategic moves that would ultimately serve more stakeholders.

[Narrator 2]:

We're seeing something called rage applying.

Rupak Bhattacharya:

2/3 of US professionals admitted to so-called rage applying last year. It's a relatively new trend where workers fed up with their current job apply to jobs they often have no intention of accepting, creating frustrations for hiring professionals.

[Narrator 3]:

The hardest question to answer in a job interview is...

Rupak Bhattacharya:

In a fresh approach to hiring, some companies are now providing interview questions in advance by publishing them online. Experts say this may help level the applicant playing field, but firms should still find ways to determine whether applicants can think on their feet.

For more insights on business and leadership, head to kornferry.com/insights. Now, back to Jill and our episode "Workday Redefined."

[Matt Haney]:

For many people, they have no time at all to disconnect or to rest. They're expected to respond to these emails and texts 24 hours a day, even when they're at dinner with their family or at their kids' birthday. And we need to update our laws to be able to clarify a bit better when people are working and when they do not have to. And so the right to disconnect, which exists in over a dozen countries around the world, France, Ireland, Australia, is a way that we can really update our laws so that there's just more clarity.

Jill Wiltfong:

With us now is Margie Warrell, a Korn Ferry Senior Client Partner and Leadership Expert. Margie, glad you're here.

Margie Warrell:

Great to be with you, Jill.

Jill Wiltfong:

That last clip featured California Assembly Member Matt Haney. He recently proposed a Right to Disconnect Bill that was inspired by your native Australia, which is set to roll out a similar law later this year. So, Margie, we talked in the first half about how workers are increasingly keen on more part-time work and four-day work weeks. Now this latest bill could further reduce the hours that people are currently working. Do you think this is pushing things too far?

Margie Warrell:

Given it's California, I would say maybe so. You only have to think about how many big companies, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard, Tesla, et cetera, have shipped out of California, their head office because they feel that it is a better business climate to be operating out of Texas or elsewhere. Legislatures have to ask themselves, "Are we setting ourselves up for our state, our country to thrive with whatever rules we're putting in place?"

Jill Wiltfong:

While it's definitely true that more than half of workers say they respond to work messages outside of normal hours, what are your thoughts on firms kind of being forced to set strict communication hours for employees? Would that hamper the kind of flexibility that many workers currently enjoy? For example, sometimes it might be easier to send out emails at night if you had to handle a bunch of unexpected issues during the day, what are your thoughts on that?

Margie Warrell:

I think there's always an implicit and explicit contract that you have with your employer, and I think whenever we get too rigid, it can work against everybody's interests. I know myself as a mom, as a woman, I love flexibility and sometimes we want to do some things during the day and we're happy to be answering emails at 9 o'clock at night. So, I think when you create too much regulation around things, it actually can be very counterproductive.

[Cuba Gooding Jr. as Rod Tidwell – ‘Jerry Maguire’ movie]:

You should be dreaming about me, baby. I should be on your mind constantly. My agent should be thinking of Rod Tidwell. That's when the big dollars are going to flow. That's when we truly will materialize the kwan.

[Jonathan Lipnicki as Ray Boyd – ‘Jerry Maguire’ movie]:

You talk too much.

[Cuba Gooding Jr. as Rod Tidwell – ‘Jerry Maguire’ movie]:

No, no, no, talking is only a primitive form of communication.

[Jonathan Lipnicki as Ray Boyd – ‘Jerry Maguire’ movie]:

Fun talking to you. Bye, Rod.

[Cuba Gooding Jr. as Rod Tidwell – ‘Jerry Maguire’ movie]:

Jerry.

Jill Wiltfong:

That was a clip from "Jerry Maguire" starring Tom Cruise where sports agent Jerry declines to pick up the phone from his football player client. Margie, it's one thing to disconnect from your boss, but let's get real here. Do you think it'll ever be possible for workers to disconnect from clients?

Margie Warrell:

Well, not if you want to stay competitive and in business. I mean if you don't really care, sure, just don't pick up the phone. And let's face it, Jill, that was the movie and that was Jerry McGuire. I'm always going to be very client focused on making sure they feel really cared for, and if there's something that needs tending to at 8 o'clock at night or on a Sunday afternoon ahead of a Monday morning meeting, that's going to get attention.

Jill Wiltfong:

Let's make it a little personal for people. Would you give your direct reports the right to disconnect? What would you do?

Margie Warrell:

Look, I think like anybody who's reasonable, everyone who works for us, with us has the right to have unplugged time, and not to feel like they have to be available all of the time. That said, sometimes things come up and sometimes we have to reach out to someone out of hours. And when we do that, obviously, it's not because we want to create stress for them or we're disrespecting them, actually, that can actually save stress in the longer term.

Jill Wiltfong:

Thank you very much for being here.

Margie Warrell:

My pleasure, Jill.

Jill Wiltfong:

The Executive Producer of "Briefings" is Jonathan Dahl. Today's episode was produced by Rupak Bhattacharya, Nadira Putri, and Teresa Allan, and edited by Jaron Henrie-McCrea. It contains reporting by Russell Pearlman, Arianne Cohen, and Peter Lauria.

Our video segment contains original artwork by Frazer Milton, Hayley Kennell, Jonathan Pink, and Sasha Kostyuk.

Don't forget to read our magazine, available at newsstands and at kornferry.com/briefings. That's it for Korn Ferry's "Briefings". I'm Jill Wiltfong. We'll see you next time.

We toss this to Ron as well instead of... I feel like we haven't talked to Joe in a while.

Ronald Porter:

That's for good reason. He's got bad answers.