BRIEFINGS PODCAST: Gen Z: Management Misgivings

Gen Z: Management Misgivings

NOTE: While this transcript has been reviewed, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript.

Jill Wiltfong:

Gen Z's management misgivings. Is there something different here?

Margie Warrell:

Gen Z is re-writing the script. They also say that managers seem to be the ones that get cut when cuts happen.

Jill Wiltfong:

Are company leaders misunderstanding your generation?

Nick Portello:

It's so frustrating marginalizing Gen Z and just kind of putting us in one big box. We know what we want, and we're determined. We are hard workers.

Jill Wiltfong:

No pressure, but lots of pressure.

[Employee]:

You asked to see me?

[Boss]:

Yes, yes, I have great news. You're getting promoted to manager.

[Employee]:

Oh, uh, that's nice. Can I think about it?

[Boss]:

What's to think about? Sure, it's a little extra headache for not a whole lot more pay, but you'll be the boss, the big kahuna, the head honcho. And hey, I'm only 35, so in a few short years you could be just like me.

[Employee]:

Wait, you're 35?

[Boss]:

Yep!

[Employee]:

Eh, I have a thing that I... I gotta go.

[Boss]:

Wonder what's gotten into him?

Jill Wiltfong:

Hi, I'm Jill Wiltfong, Chief Marketing Officer for Korn Ferry, and this is "Briefings", our deep dive into topics that corporate leaders need to care about. Being promoted to manager was once considered a high honor. I mean, who wouldn't want a better title, better pay, and better prospects for career development? Well, apparently, Gen Z. In a trend known as conscious unbossing, a remarkable seven in 10 Gen Z workers say they'd rather be individual contributors than middle managers. And that's a major concern for leaders worried about the future of their organizations now that Gen Z makes up 30% of the workforce, even having surpassed Baby Boomers. Gen Zers offer a host of reasons, some of which other generations dismiss, but surely there's a good reason for this reluctance to move up the company ladder.

So today, let's find out what it is and what firms can do to ease Gen Z's management misgivings. Before we start, if you're watching us on YouTube, please be sure to like, subscribe, and leave a comment and let us know your thoughts on this topic.

With us now is Margie Warrell, the Korn Ferry leadership advisor, executive coach, and author of the upcoming book, "The Courage Gap." Her extensive work with company leaders has given her a unique insight into the company perspective on motivating the next generation of managers. Margie, it is great to see you again.

Margie Warrell:

Thanks for having me, Jill.

Jill Wiltfong:

You bet. Margie, one could argue that every new generation to the workforce might have cold feet when it comes to being a manager, along with all that's involved, but is there something different here when it comes to Gen Z?

Margie Warrell:

Let's be honest here. Gen Z is rewriting the script in a whole new way. They're not so much thinking how do I climb the corporate ladder, but how do I, like, not to have to do the corporate ladder at all? So, there is no doubt that Gen Z is different. And in fact, did you know, Jill, that on LinkedIn, the second biggest title for Gen Zs is founder, which I'm not sure is more terrifying or inspiring, but they're totally taking a new take on what they look for themselves and their careers.

Jill Wiltfong:

So, what do you think is behind that? There's so many of them, right, with this founder language. What's making them, do you think, or do you know, want to work for themselves rather than within this kind of bigger corporate structure?

Margie Warrell:

I think there's a whole host of different factors at play. One of them is that they've seen the millennials, the next generation up, working really hard, sitting there, eating their lunch at their desk 60 hours a week and going, "I don't want to do that. I'm not going to repeat that." They also see that managers seem to be the ones that get cut when cuts happen.

Ron Livingston – ‘Office Space’ movie:

Ever since I started working, every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that’s the worst day of my life.

Joe Bays – ‘Office Space’ movie:

What about today? Is today the worst day of your life?

Ron Livingston – ‘Office Space’ movie:

Yeah.

Jill Wiltfong:

That is a scene from the comedy, "Office Space", in which Ron Livingston talks about how unhappy his work makes him. Margie, work-life balance, which we've been talking about a little bit already here, has been cited as a reason that Gen Z is hesitant to take the reins. One study found that three in four millennial managers feel overwhelmed, stressed, burned out, and Gen Z has a front row seat, you could say, to kind of all of that. You talked about leaders modeling better work-life balance in the past themselves. Could that be an answer here? Can you just talk about that a little bit for us?

Margie Warrell:

Absolutely, I think we need leaders to be role modeling how to have a successful professional life and also have a life that's not at work or sitting in your office at home. And so, it's not about less commitment, it's about sustainable commitment.

Jill Wiltfong:

It's also probably worth talking about the fear that being a manager might put you at greater risk of losing your job, which you talked about just a little bit, a little earlier. Middle management positions accounted for nearly a third of the layoffs in 2023, which is significant. It's a delicate balancing act, I would guess. How can leaders communicate the value of being a manager while still needing to occasionally cut back on those roles.

Margie Warrell:

Be careful not to put all your attention on, "Oh, but then I could lose my job." Yeah, but actually, you're going to be in a better place to find more jobs when you have those skills. So, I think it's important for management to emphasize this isn't just about a title. It is about a toolkit that you're getting.

Ben Whishaw – ‘Skyfall’ movie:

Double-oh-seven, I'm your new quartermaster.

Daniel Craig – ‘Skyfall’ movie:

You must be joking.

Ben Whishaw – ‘Skyfall’ movie:

Why, because I'm not wearing a lab coat?

Daniel Craig – ‘Skyfall’ movie:

Because you still have spots.

Ben Whishaw – ‘Skyfall’ movie:

Age is no guarantee of efficiency.

Daniel Craig – ‘Skyfall’ movie:

And youth is no guarantee of innovation.

Jill Wiltfong:

That's a scene from the James Bond film, "Skyfall", where an older Bond and a younger Q have an intergenerational standoff. These sentiments may be echoed in the corporate world, where some 40% of employees over age 55 haven't directly spoken, this is unbelievable to me, haven't directly spoken to a Gen Z employee in the last year. And on the flip of that, one in five Gen Zers report not having spoken to someone over 50 in the last year. So, Margie, I've got to believe this is likely adding to the problem and that Gen Z perhaps isn't being brought into the fold as much as one would hope. How can leaders create a culture of better communication between younger and older colleagues? How do we get that going?

Margie Warrell:

Any leader who is over the age of 50 that isn't talking to someone that's under the age of 30 or 25, they're missing out immensely. It's not just our Gen Zs getting the value of being able to have conversations and exposed to those who are more senior in the ranks. There's a reverse mentoring role here, too. I think there has to be some cross-generational mentoring that's set up, whether that formally or informally.

Jill Wiltfong:

Before you go, I'd love to touch on your book, "The Courage Gap." You have said that you discovered through your research that Gen Z taking on management roles really comes down to their ability to what you say is step into their courage gap. What do you mean when you say that?

Margie Warrell:

Courage is a learnable skill. I mean, it's both a trait and a competency. That means we can develop it with use. And so, we can't wait until we're 40 and go, "Oh, now I'm going to develop this skill," if we haven't been developing it when we're 25 and 28. And is it difficult? Yeah! Might I sometimes mess it up? Sure, you bet. I meet plenty of people my age who mess it up. But if you give yourself permission to step into that gap, over time you're going to find, you're going to shift the whole trajectory of your career.

Jill Wiltfong:

Really good advice as always, and very refreshing, candor commentary, which we also appreciate and have learned to get from you. So, thank you for your time today. Appreciate it.

Margie Warrell:

Thanks, Jill.

Jill Wiltfong:

We've just looked at Gen Z from the senior leadership perspective. After the break, we'll be going straight to the source and hearing directly from a member of the Gen Z workforce. So, stay with us.

Rupak Bhattacharya:

Hi, and welcome to This Week in Leadership. I'm Rupak Bhattacharya, and here's a quick look at what else is happening in business.

[Speaker 1]:

More sick days.

Rupak Bhattacharya:

The average number of sick days taken has grown 15% in five years, an increase that cuts both ways. On the one hand, it reflects the fact that employees are making better work-life balance decisions. But on the other, it represents a threat to corporate productivity, which may rely on people not using all of their sick time.

[Speaker 2]:

How to deal with your enemies at work?

Rupak Bhattacharya:

Six in 10 employees admit to having a work nemesis. Experts say that while healthy rivalry can motivate employees to excel, it can often devolve into something worse. Instead, they encourage professionals to focus on elevating their own game and even consider collaborating with their supposed foe.

[Speaker 3]:

What if we let AI do the thinking?

Rupak Bhattacharya:

With 20% of large companies investing up to $50 million per year in AI, technology professionals say a day may soon come when AI starts making major strategic decisions. The challenge they say will be for firms to maintain stakeholder trust at a time when just 67% of employees and 30% of customers trust a given company. For more insights on business and leadership, head to kornferry.com/insights. Now, back to Jill and our episode.

[Simon Sinek]:

As a young generation, they're actually less equipped to deal with stress than previous generations. And so, anxiety is high, and they're very confrontation avoidant. So, for example, we've seen this, where they feel like they deserve a raise, and they don't know how to ask for a raise. And so instead of asking for a raise, they'll just quit.

Jill Wiltfong:

With us now is Nick Portello, a publicity assistant at IFP Communications. As a recent college graduate and member of the Gen Z workforce, he's got firsthand perspective on some of the issues facing his generation. Nick, thanks for joining me.

Nick Portello:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here and to defend my generation.

Jill Wiltfong:

Exactly, no pressure, but lots of pressure. That last clip featured business leadership expert Simon Sinek, talking about some of the issues he sees with Gen Z. I wanted to show you that clip because I assume you must see the headlines and hear all of this from generational leaders who are much older, (clears throat) like me, than Gen Z. What do you think when you hear it? Are company leaders misunderstanding your generation? Are the comments unfair?

Nick Portello:

I have to admit, I found Simon's clip so frustrating because I really feel like he and a lot of managers and a lot of higher ups in the workforce are really just marginalizing Gen Z and just kind of putting us in one big box. That we're cranky, we need to get what we want immediately or we're out, we're quitting. We are hard workers. We really know what we want, and we don't know exactly what we are going to do to get it. That comes with experience, but we know what we want, and we're determined. And I feel like this kind of paints us in not the best light.

Jill Wiltfong:

Let's talk a little bit about this issue of management specifically. We said earlier that seven in 10 Gen Z workers say they'd rather be individual contributors than middle managers. Now, you've just said you might consider being a manager in a few years, but at the current moment, maybe not so appealing for you. I'm curious if that is indeed, true for you, and if so, why? Why do you say that?

Nick Portello:

Gen Z, with the rise of social media and the way that we're able to see so many different career paths and so many different people live their passions, it's really inspiring. And the nine to five is kind of becoming a little bit broken apart by Gen Z. It's not something that everyone in Gen Z wants to pursue. So, back to your question about being a manager, maybe down the line, I would love to be a manager in maybe a decade, maybe not even a few years.

Sandra Bullock – ‘Two Weeks’ Notice’ movie:

George, I have an ulcer. I don't sleep well, mostly because you keep calling me in the middle of the night. And if you don't call me, I dream that you're going to call me. Not in a good way, but in an "I'm so distracted, I can't remember if I washed my hair" kind of way. So, I'll wash my hair twice. So, I have a hole in my stomach, I'm running out of shampoo, and today is the first time in my life that I did not give a 1000% on the job, and I hate that feeling.

Jill Wiltfong:

That's a scene from the movie "Two Weeks’ Notice", where Sandra Bullock complains to her boss about a total lack of work-life balance. It's an issue some Gen Z workers have also cited as a concern around being promoted. One survey found that 67% of Gen Z respondents ranked spending time with family and friends, very noble, as a top life ambition outweighing career goals. Nick, what are your thoughts on this? Has your recent experience of work culture struck you as out of balance?

Nick Portello:

First of all, work-life balance is my top priority as a Gen Z employee. Right now, I think I have a great work-life balance despite being a publicist and how busy that can be. And I think that work is obviously super important and can provide a lot of meaning as well, but I think that what you do outside of work has an equal amount of meaning.

Jill Wiltfong:

Let's end with some advice that leaders can take away, because I think you've got some really good, good thinking here. What do you think they should be doing? What should we be doing as management to kind of help make moving up the chain and leading organizations more appealing? What would be on your wish list?

Nick Portello:

Transparency and communication. You know, as a manager you should never assume how an employee is feeling about a certain thing. Even if you think it's going a certain way, you'll never know until you 100% check in. And I think just being included on a team is what Gen Z, or at least speaking for myself, really values. When my boss asks me to go to events, even if they are after work, getting to go to an event where I have a chance to be social and meet new people, that's really exciting to me. I understand that that may go against the work-life balance that I talked about before, but people have different passions and my passion is events, so that would mean a lot to me.

Jill Wiltfong:

Nick, thank you so much for coming on, giving us your perspective, being as candid and transparent and honest as you've been. I think we've got some good things to learn from you here.

Nick Portello:

Thank you so much. I'm so grateful to be a part of this. Thanks for having me.

Jill Wiltfong:

The Executive Producer of "Briefings" is Jonathan Dahl. Today's episode was produced by Rupak Bhattacharya, Nadira Putri, and Teresa Allan. And it was edited by Jaron Henrie-McCrea. It contains reporting by Russell Pearlman, Arianne Cohen, and Peter Lauria.

Our video segment contains original artwork by Frazer Milton, Hayley Kennell, Jonathan Pink, and Sasha Kostyuk.

Don't forget to read our magazine, available at newsstands and at kornferry.com/briefings. That's it for Korn Ferry “Briefings”. I'm Jill Wiltfong. See you next time.

Margie Warrell:

I think she was thinking, "Seriously, I look way better than you." Anyway. But she was totally, like cool. It was great.