BRIEFINGS PODCAST: BOUNCING BACK FROM A LAYOFF

Bouncing Back from a Layoff

NOTE: While this transcript has been reviewed, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript.

Jill Wiltfong:

Getting laid off. Layoffs are one of the stark realities of business world. Is there a way to know if you're at risk?

Liz Bentley:

There are signs, but the question is: do you want to see them? It's a good idea to kiss the best frog.

Jill Wiltfong:

What do you think is the best strategy to cope, especially with those darker feelings?

Frances Weir:

Let them happen. You're in fight or flight mode. Your amygdala's been hijacked.

Jill Wiltfong:

Bouncing back from a layoff...

Rupak Bhattacharya:

I can't believe I got laid off. I don't think I can get out of bed. Rock and roll, baby (laughs). Time to binge eat like it's 1999. Oh, and while we're at it, why don't we get on LinkedIn and do an emotional dump about your lousy ex-boss. You know what I mean? Really stick it to the man.

No, don't listen to him. You should take time to honor your feelings and reflect honestly on your experience at the company. Then, when the time is right, we'll reach out to your supportive network.

Good luck with that. Come on, let's just lay in bed for the next year or so.

Laying in bed may be okay in moderation, but-

Blah, blah, blah, what a bunch of hot air.

Hey, you're the reason we are here in the first place.

Uh, no, that's so not true. You are.

Stop, stop, stop, stop! I can do this; I can bounce back.

Jill Wiltfong:

Hi, I am Jill Wiltfong, Chief Marketing Officer for Korn Ferry, and this is "Briefings" our deep dive into topics that corporate leaders need to care about. Getting laid off, it's a deeply painful experience, not just for what it does to your finances and career, but also to your psyche. There are scary stories of people, I certainly have friends in my own circle, who were let go years ago and still today never forget. Yet, as we all know, layoffs are one of the stark realities of business world. This year alone, 4 in 10 companies expect to let people go. And to listen to artificial intelligence experts talk, we may be in for sweeping layoffs in years to come as more machines step in for humans, whether it's just happened to you, or not, handling or preparing for layoffs is an ever-changing skill. We have no easy answers today, but let's look at what two experts can tell us about bouncing back from a layoff.

We're joined now by Liz Bentley, CEO, and founder of Liz Bentley Associates. Liz is a columnist for "Briefings" Magazine and a nationally recognized career coach who's helped many people navigate both sides of this topic, those getting laid off, and those actually having to deliver that news. Hi Liz, it's really great to have you back on the show.

Liz Bentley:

Hey, thanks so much for having me. Really excited to be here.

Jill Wiltfong:

Before we get to bouncing back, which is certainly something we wanna talk about, let's first look at some layoff prevention and kind of start there. 40% of Americans have been laid off or terminated from a job at least once, and yet layoffs can still completely blindside people. Is there a way to know if you're at risk of being let go, or there's specific signs that you should be looking for?

Liz Bentley:

Absolutely. I mean, I think in most cases you have been getting signs that you just really didn't wanna look at. I can make this equivalent to, you know, your spouse or partner having an affair on you (chuckles). There are signs, but the question is, do you want to see them? So, in the layoff world, it's the same, okay. You are definitely getting signs, you're being left off of emails, not included in meetings, your opinion's not been being taken, you're not being put on special projects. People aren't leaning into you.

Jill Wiltfong:

Another stat worth noting, when companies do layoffs, about 20% of the employees are typically let go, which of course, means that even when times are tough for a firm, not everyone is impacted. So, what's your best tip to avoid being in that bottom percentage? How can you make sure you're not there?

Liz Bentley:

Again, realism is gonna be really important. What I find is the people who are getting laid off are the ones who don't wanna read the tea leaves. They're the people who are not willing to look at the truth of what's happening. They're not listening to the feedback. They're blaming it on the boss. They're making excuses. And these are the things that get you on the bottom 10%.

[George Clooney as Ryan Bingham – ‘Up in the Air’ movie]:

How much did they first pay you to give up on your dreams?

[J.K. Simmons as Bob – ‘Up in the Air’ movie]:

27 grand a year.

[George Clooney as Ryan Bingham – ‘Up in the Air’ movie]:

And when were you gonna stop, and come back and do what makes you happy?

[J.K. Simmons as Bob – ‘Up in the Air’ movie]:

Good question.

[George Clooney as Ryan Bingham – ‘Up in the Air’ movie]:

I see guys who work at the same company for their entire lives. Guys exactly like you. They clock in, they clock out, and they never have a moment of happiness. You have an opportunity here, Bob. This is a rebirth. Now, if not for you, do it for your children.

Jill Wiltfong:

That's a scene from the movie "Up in the Air" where George Clooney gives news of a layoff to J.K. Simmons, framing it in the most positive way possible. Even then, being laid off is almost always a tough pill to swallow. So, Liz, let's say you're not able to save yourself, and you are let go, what do you do day one?

Liz Bentley:

It's a tough shot across the bow as we say, but it's a good time to kind of stop blaming the company, the boss, the people who laid you off, and think a little bit about why this happened. Then second, you know, you gotta do all the things that get you geared back up to getting another job, like networking, redoing your resume, getting yourself, you know, kind of out there again or talking to people when you're ready.

Jill Wiltfong:

You've talked about not taking the first job that comes along, which I think is very interesting. That can be a hard thing to do, right? Especially given the high cost of living these days. The stress of even getting something in the queue there. What's the logic behind not taking that first job?

Liz Bentley:

Well, let me be clear, sometimes you should. Okay. Because it's, you know, the only gig in town and it is a good job. But sometimes it's good, if you think you have the ability to get a couple of offers, it's a good idea to kind of, you know, kiss the best frog, 'cause you really want the next experience to be a good one. And just because the last experience was bad, doesn't mean the next one can't be great.

[Jeff Su]:

46% of job seekers use ChatGPT in their job search process. 69% of those job seekers got more interviews compared to when they didn't use an AI assistant. And 59% ended up with job offers. But here's what gets really interesting. 77% of the success cases still had to make heavy edits to the ChatGPT outputs because they were too generic, and the remaining 23% received highly personalized results. What caused that difference? The quality of the initial prompt.

Jill Wiltfong:

That's productivity YouTuber, Jeff Su, speaking about the benefits of AI when it comes to finding a job, especially if you get your prompts right. Liz, AI appears to be one technology that can help people get back on their feet. Maybe social media could be another, or do you recommend laying low on these platforms like LinkedIn...

Liz Bentley:

No.

Jill Wiltfong:

When it comes to sharing? Like what do we do? What do we do?

Liz Bentley:

No, I think you get in there because that's how people find you. I would not lay low at all. I think also it's good for you to get yourself back out there, because sometimes when you get fired you want to turtle, and you need to, you know, come out of the shell. And get moving and get back in the action.

Jill Wiltfong:

So now let's say you're over that initial hump, you make it to your first job interview, right? Hooray, you have a job interview. You've talked about the need to create a really good storyline around your layoff. Can you give an example of what that, what a sample storyline might sound like?

Liz Bentley:

So, I would definitely think a little bit about the story of why it wasn't the right fit. And what it is that you can talk about on your end on why it wasn't the right fit, and and why it happened. So, it could have been about unrealistic outcomes that they were looking for. It could be, again, about a bad cultural fit. What I would avoid doing is do not say things like, "I had a very difficult boss", because any boss that's hearing that is gonna be like, "hmm". You know, like, are you the difficult one? So, I would not throw anyone under the bus.

Jill Wiltfong:

Thanks, Liz, really helpful to get your practical perspective on all of this.

Liz Bentley:

Thanks so much, I really appreciate you having me on.

Jill Wiltfong:

We've explored bouncing back from a career perspective, but after the break we'll be talking to a psychotherapist and career coach about ways to bounce back from a layoff psychologically and emotionally. So, stick around.

Rupak Bhattacharya:

Hi, and welcome to "This Week in Leadership". I'm Rupak Bhattacharya, and here's a quick look at what else is happening in business.

[Questioner]:

Will being an entrepreneur hurt me?

Rupak Bhattacharya:

In a trend that is often referred to as the entrepreneurship penalty. One study found that 60% of recruiters responded less favorably to a resume of a former entrepreneur. Experts say it comes down to many recruiters believing entrepreneurs aren't good fits culturally at bigger organizations.

[Announcer]:

$4.9 million to buy an apartment building to house employees.

Rupak Bhattacharya:

One in four employers plans to offer housing assistance to employees this year. While this may be seen as generosity on the part of companies, part of the reason more firms are offering housing assistance may be also to get people back into the office.

[Announcer]:

Pricing algorithms allow companies to change prices throughout the day.

Rupak Bhattacharya:

Dynamic pricing is increasingly being used in retail. The practice involves shifting prices based on consumer demand and is usually associated with booking flights, rental cars, and hotels. But when it comes to retail, over half of consumers feel that the practice is price gouging. For more insights on business and leadership, head to kornferry.com/insights. Now back to Jill, and our episode, Bouncing Back from a Layoff.

[Operator]:

We're sorry. The telephone you are calling from is not in service at this time.

[Stanley Tucci as Eric Dale – ‘Margin Call’ movie]:

Robertson. Sarah Robertson. Sarah! You shut off my phone?

[Demi Moore as Sarah Robertson – ‘Margin Call’ movie]:

Eric, I didn't do anything.

Jill Wiltfong:

With us now is Frances Weir, a business psychologist and executive coach from Korn Ferry's leadership and professional development practice, here to give us insight into addressing the mental side of being laid off. Frances, thanks for joining us.

Frances Weir:

It's wonderful to be here with you.

Jill Wiltfong:

So that last clip we just saw was a scene from "Margin Call" where Stanley Tucci confronts his former colleague right after being laid off and having his company phone disconnected. Frances, it has been said that the five stages of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, all the way to acceptance can just as easily apply to losing one's job. What do you think is the best strategy to cope, especially with those darker feelings that we know at some point set in?

Frances Weir:

I think the truly best strategy, and this is obviously coming from my area of expertise, is to truly let them happen. And what I mean by that is to acknowledge their presence, the way that they're making you feel, and to move through that. I'm not saying that's easy at all, but it is often the most important thing that needs to happen. And of course, I would say, if you are not coping with those kind of darker feelings that you talk about, then we would of course recommend that you seek help from a medical professional.

Jill Wiltfong:

Are there things that can be counterproductive, maybe emotionally, that people may be tempted to do, but really should avoid doing right after being let go?

Frances Weir:

It's important to understand that there is a time and a place and a difference between emotion-focused coping and problem-focused coping. So, if you think that you've received what is probably bad news, you are in fight or flight mode, you know your amygdala's been hijacked, chances are the best thing to do is not necessarily to act. And so that might look like sharing your story on social media with, you know, everyone that you're connected to. It might look like applying to a hundred different jobs in panic, because you think that's the right thing to do, but actually given time you might not think that they would be the best fit for you.

[David Wen]:

So, I've survived a few layoffs in the US, and because employment is at will, anyone can get let go at any time for any reason. But in the Netherlands, you just can't get let go without a valid reason, especially if one has a permanent contract, the company needs a lot of evidence to prove to the government agency that they have a valid reason to lay this person off.

Jill Wiltfong:

That's YouTuber, David Wen, talking about the difference between a layoff in the Netherlands and in the US. Frances, we know that in Europe in general, they have really different approaches to layoffs there. Do you find it makes psych, makes it, I guess, psychologically easier for people going through a situation in Europe versus the way we handle them here in the US, and if so, in what ways?

Frances Weir:

I do think it makes it psychologically easier, and the benefit to that is that it gives us time. It can also help us have a sense of agency or involvement. And that can be as small as having a voice, feeling as though your voice is heard, even right through to what I have seen happen many times, which is that people can successfully defend the relevance of their position, and then actually keep it

Jill Wiltfong:

Speaking of making things easier on employees, you've also talked about the value of conducting layoffs via video conference versus in person in the office, which was actually a little bit counterintuitive when I first heard about it, but talk about it for the audience here, so they understand kind of your thinking behind that.

Frances Weir:

Technology I think can help us be more humane. And the reason I say this is because if I asked you how you would ideally want to be laid off, chances are you probably wouldn't say that you wanted to be in the office in the close vicinity of your peers, and maybe teams, where you would have to mask your reaction. You would probably choose a location where you felt safe and secure. I would also say that from an employer standpoint, we really have to be cognizant of the fact that we create the soundtrack to employees' lives in moments like these, and those soundtracks will be replayed and augmented in ways that we didn't intend. We should really think about the responsibility we have to kind of inject empathy and dignity throughout a process like this. And I really think that technology can help us do that.

Jill Wiltfong:

Well, thank you so much for your time and your candor, and also your inspiration, and hope there at the end. Really appreciate your thoughts here.

Frances Weir:

Thank you so much for having me.

Jill Wiltfong:

The Executive Producer of "Briefings" is Jonathan Dahl. Today's episode was produced by Rupak Bhattacharya, Nadira Putri, and Teresa Allan. And it was edited by Jaron Henrie-McCrea. It contains reporting by Russell Pearlman, Arianne Cohen, and Peter Lauria.

Our video segment contains original artwork by Frazer Milton, Hayley Kennell, Jonathan Pink, and Sasha Kostyuk.

Don't forget to read our magazine, available at newsstands and at kornferry.com/briefings. That's it for Korn Ferry’s “Briefings”. I'm Jill Wiltfong. See you next time.

Rupak Bhattacharya:

Come on, let's just lay in bed for the next year or so. Okay, there we got that.